I honestly do not understand why this country is so solidly behind Israel. Ok, sure, they've been persecuted since the beginning of time, have been claimed as God's chosen people, but even they turned from Him, and in the ultimate rejection refused to acknowledge God's own Son when He was here on earth. To be sure, that was necessary in order for God's grace and love to be spread to the rest of the world.
But, c'mon. Ever since the re-formation of the country of Israel, they have been nothing but trouble. Every few years, someone buzzes around their head like a fly. So they get out machine guns and shoot in the direction of the fly, without any regard for whatever else or who else they might hit. And this seems to be their only policy. So how can things ever change?
To be sure, it's really difficult to negotiate or find common ground with countries who blend religion with politics and whose religion has been twisted to demand death of anyone who thinks differently. To be sure, the U.S. has a strong interest in making sure that a democratic non-Muslim presence remain in that part of the world. To be sure, there are plenty of familial connections between Israel and the United States.
But over 800,000 people are now displaced and with roads and bridges and airports/airfields destroyed, ports blockaded and the indiscriminate destruction by Israeli forces with no guarantee of safety for aid workers, the situation only gets worse. It's a crime and we are complicit in this. And it's not going to win either country favors with the rest of the world. Kevin spoke the other day of China really not caring what the rest of the world thinks. A concept that's true but hard for me to wrap my brain around. I don't think the U.S. has that luxury, it does and has to care what the rest of the world thinks. And blunders, misteps and stupidity of late do nothing to help our image.
I'm not saying "Can't we all just get along" but I'm asking why we're sitting idly by while this gets worse. The minute a U.S. State Department-chartered boat out of Turkey or Georgia or wherever was blocked by Israeli freighters, we should have stopped being a passive bystander just watching half-amused and quietly rooting for Israel.
Which is just dumb. The policy has never worked. You all know the saying... Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. The U.S. is insane and Israel is flipping certifiable.
I might be getting this wrong, but I think it was Rabin who once told the story of two hunters who had shot a large buck. Dragging the large deer towards their car they entered a thick brush and soon became stuck. They struggled, pulling really hard. The progress was really slow. Eventually one of them suggested to the other that they go to the other side of the animal and pull it by its legs so that the antlers were at the back. The other agreed and they went around the animal and began pulling. After awhile the first turned to the second and said "There. This is much better." The second replied, "Yes, we are making great progress now. But we are getting farther and farther away from the car."
I don't even completely understand how to unpack that. But it's time for a change. It's time for a cease-fire, it's time for guarantees of safe passage/protected corridors through Southern Lebanon to help displaced people, it's time for a new, intelligent approach to living on this planet by the state of Israel.
Maybe it's been too long since I watched West Wing. Say what you will, I think it did a good job of conveying how many layers any decision has. So let me look at it with my very simplistic, action-oriented mind and say that it's time the U.S. the right thing.
13 comments:
as your friend, i don't want to respond. As a jew i must. and yet, i don't know how. you sit in your new suburban community with your cute little and nice job and sit in judgement on a country 9000 miles away.
what was your reaction after 9/11, when a bunch of ists destroyed a landmark? what would your reaction be if ists came over the Washinton State border and blew up the Space Needle?
i could point you to the blog of my friend and former boss who uprooted his family to live a dream, not 3 weeks before this war broke out. i could point you to the ZAKA website and show you how they pick up the pieces of every victim of to ensure a proper burial. I could point you to the Fox News Network, who, out of all the big news machines, sees that Israel is fighting the world's fight against because it has toin order to exist in safety, since no one else will. i could tell you of speeches that i heard in Arabic that spoke of decimation of Israel, while it was transalted into english as a desire for peace. i could tell you stories about just misses and almost blown up friends and religious leaders, and i could link you to a video from 4 months ago showing an atheistic muslim woman speak very clearly about the reasons behind the israeli-arab conflict.
i could, but i won't. and i won't because we start at different points. i am faithful to the religion of my parents, grandparents and forefathers back through the ages, through the Exodus from Egypt and the circumcision of Isaac at the age of 8 days. my religion has not changed in 5766 years. my desire for the land of israel to live in peace according to the Torah and the rabbis will never die. and for me, i thank Gd that the US supports Israel as deeply and thoroughly as it does. it keeps my friends and family a little bit safer, although, in the end, it truly is up to Gd.
Amy, I just think the policy is flawed. I think the response is not commensurate or "appropriate." I think the act in the first place that led to Israel's reaction is symptomatic of Israel's failed foriegn policy.
And I'll be the first to admit that I really don't know what the solution is when the enemy doesn't distinguish between politics and religion and therefore the very existence of Israel (or The United States) is an affront.
But I don't think this is working. To make sure I have a shred of knowledge about what I'm talking about, I did a little more reading about Israel since 1947 today on Wikipedia.
I completely understand and sympathize with the hurt, suffering, pain, injury, death, etc., that Israel is suffering under the deluge of rockets that keep raining down on its cities.
But let's be clear here. The modern war is far different than the kind Israel or the United States armed forces has trained for. While the IDF (and Israel as a whole) has far more experience with it, both countries' technological advantage is lost on this kind of new kind of enemy that doesn't play by the rules, isn't an identifiable country one can officially declare war against and doesn't present clear and present targets.
Meanwhile, people completely unrelated to conflict are being hurt, killed, displaced and so forth, aid is unable to get to them and Israel is unwilling to help -- or at least promise that they won't fire on -- those who attempt to provide aid.
And a disproportionate number of these are women and children. While we want to treat everyone fairly, it's often common in situations like these where these two groups (followed next by the elderly) are the most vulnerable.
I guarantee you there are Lebanese children at this very moment cowering somewhere. They're probably far removed now from the area, but they're still scared, emotionally scarred and they will grow up with a hatred for Israel that will manifest itself in continued violence.
For a moment, separate "Jew" from "Israel," if that's possible. Perhaps it's not. Perhaps this is like trying to tell a Muslim to differentiate between nationalism and Islamic beliefs. If so, my frustration here is partially fueled by my inability to understand how they cannot be separated.
But it's gotta stop. When the WTC happened on 9/11, we got pissed. We wanted to smack someone down. That was kind of tough because we weren't attacked by a country. So we went after Bin Laden and Al Queda. Somewhere along the lines, we got sidetracked and now good men and women are getting killed daily for an unwinnable war. But I would still argue that the United States is being a little more delicate in its handling of Iraq and Afghanistan -- and as a result suffering far more casualties. But those in the know would probably argue that there's a more complete end result being sought, even if they are unable to articulate it to the American public and world.
Until the Chinese finally make their move and take over the entire world, we need some way to understand that Americans, Israelis, Jews, Christians, Muslims, blacks, whites, women, men, straights and homosexuals, old people, kids, dogs, and cats will all need to share the finite space on this earth.
Building walls and trying to hide behind them will only work until the enemy figures out how to send instruments of death over the top. Continually causing suffering to others will only result in further generations of hatred.
I'm not saying "Can't we all just get along?" I'm saying "We must all get along. Or just figure out some way to agree to leave each other the hell alone."
I should end with that, but I got one more thing. I think it should be Israel's duty to help Palestine. Israelis enjoy a per capita of $23k a month to Palestine's $900. That sure has anything does not make for great neighbors.
again, as your friend, i have to tell you that to further continue this discussion will cause a problem. having said that, i will say that:
1) while the israelis had possession of Gaza, they made fruit grow in sand. the palestenians blame israel for not continuing to do that for them.
2) there is no way to separate Jew and Israeli. Americans come from everywhere, but every jew has the right to be an israeli citizen under the birthright law. it is not the israeli state. it is the jewish state. without one, there is no other.
3) i saw a 7 year old palestinian girl on CNN speak calmly of killing everyone in israel because they exist. for no other reason. this is a girl who in 4 or 5 or 10 years will get on a bus to go to work and blow up a bus with a bomb full of nails strapped to her chest.
and israeli child the same age will not say that. its not in our nature to think like that.
4) Syria yesterday, came out of "nowhere" and stated that they will retaliate if Israel attacks. israel has promised not to attacked, even though syria is supplying hezbollah. but since the rockets are not being shot from syria, they will not attack.
this isn't something i can explain to you. the arabs of today are not like the Moors of old, with religious tolerance and interest in promoting world acceptance. the arabs of today exist to wipe israel off the face of the earth, and kill all the jews they can. my family was run out of their home in 1964 because the arabs received their independence from france and jews were no longer tolerated. its genetic, its bible-dictated, and there is nothing in your 21st century mind that will allow this to stand as fact.
israelis work for that 23K a year. they go to school, go through the army, go to college, work to develop farming and technilogocal advances for man, be it arab or other. i disagree with you. let the palestinians work for their money. let them spend less time trying to blow up the country next door and more time making their land as it could be. for the last 58 years, and before that, israel has accomplished what it has in the face of terrorism and it has thrived. what is stopping the arabs from accomplishing the same?
Amy, that's the point. The Lebanese girl is saying that because Israel is again bombing the hell out of it.
If you keep a man in a garbage can and you relentless pound on the lid, if he ever gets a chance to get out, he's going to punch you.
There's a saying amongst Christians who are trying to spread the Gospel. They say a hurting, hungry person isn't going to be interested in hearing about Jesus. They're going to only be in food.
If you ever wish to have any sort of lasting peace, you're going to have to share how you grow fruit in the sand. Improving the productivity of the Palestines, helping them to be productive, helping them to be successful will only help Israel. First off, they'll be too busy improving their lives to be as hateful. Secondly, you are building new consumers for Israeli goods.
Syria didn't come out of nowhere. They're to be commended for sitting on their hands this long. I won't be surprised if this thing just blows up. If enough countries come to Lebanon's aid, Israel's gonna be in a world of hurt and you're gonna drag reluctant Americans into it as well.
If you think Israel has the support of the United States now, just watch how fast it erodes if America enters a third conflict.
As to your belief that they will stop at nothing in their jihad to rid the earth of Jews, that may be true. But Israel's actions will simply to strengthen resolve and their hatred.
I believe that anyone can change and everyone deserves a chance. I believe you don't change people's hearts and minds by shoving their face in the dirt every chance you get.
as long as you see Israel as the antagonist and instigator, we have nothing to talk about. as long as you perceive the problems, fault, blame and responsibility to be within the hands of the israelis, i have nothing left to say to you about this.
Amy -
I also see Israel as having the most potential to change the future for good.
Israel has the superior technology, has the biggest desire for peace, has more world power/influence/clout. It has more money. Oh, and that whole thing about being God's chosen people.
It can use that advantage to hold its neighbors down (and be brought down to their level) or it can use that advantage to raise up its fellow man.
My primary argument is that Israel's response was not appropriate for the original action. It may not have started it, but it's not going to finish it either. It will prevail in this skirmish, Israel always does. But only so that it can live to fight another day, because this is just another opportunity Israel has taken to provide fuel to its enemies to stir up and raise up another generation of those that would wish to rid the earth of all Jews.
That's all.
I do appreciate your perspective and your willingness to engage me on this. It's been a long time since there's been a really substantive discussion over anything I've written.
I just want to see an end to the suffering and misery that's disproportionately affecting women, children and the elderly in southern Lebanon who didn't ask for this, cannot flee (due to infrastructure damage) and can't get aid (due to infrastructure damage or the lack of assurances of the State of Israel to the aid organizations.)
James
This will help explain one of the problems i have with your line of thought. where are the other arab countries? Egypt? Jordan? Saudi Arabia? why are they not getting involved and coming to the aid of the lebanese and palestinians? as jews, we take care of our own, no matter where they live. how come they are not taking care of their own?
That (the word "this" on Amy's post is a link) is a really good and compelling piece. Another perspective and I suspect many real elements of truth to it.
If those allegations were entirely true, then Israel's pretty stupid and fell into their trap and did exactly what the terrorists wanted them to. Gives a little too much credit to the terrorists and a little too little credit to the intelligence of those running the IDF.
To that end, I don't believe it to be 100% true. But I think there are a lot of legitimate and truthful allegations in the video.
Interesting. Very interesting.
well, you got your cease-fire. so instead of katyusha-ing israel, Hizbullah ed southern lebanon.
go figure.
I don't know what that means.
Of course, a cease fire just means an opportunity to get new and better rockets into Lebanon. Despite any blockade, I know it will happen.
The only thing that Israel's succeeded in doing so far is apparently lessening Hezboleh's stockpile of weapons.
Why didn't the IDF do more covert operations and go after more of their leadership?
Of course, why did Israel cede the 20 mile buffer in the first place? Apparently it was an occupation Lebanon was willing to live with.
It might have prevented the kidnap of the two soldiers in the first place. It wouldn't be far enough to prevent rockets, but they weren't flying back then.
Amy, that's the point. The Lebanese girl is saying that because Israel is again bombing the hell out of it.
If you keep a man in a garbage can and you relentless pound on the lid, if he ever gets a chance to get out, he's going to punch you.
There's a saying amongst Christians who are trying to spread the Gospel. They say a hurting, hungry person isn't going to be interested in hearing about Jesus. They're going to only be in food.
If you ever wish to have any sort of lasting peace, you're going to have to share how you grow fruit in the sand. Improving the productivity of the Palestines, helping them to be productive, helping them to be successful will only help Israel. First off, they'll be too busy improving their lives to be as hateful. Secondly, you are building new consumers for Israeli goods.
Syria didn't come out of nowhere. They're to be commended for sitting on their hands this long. I won't be surprised if this thing just blows up. If enough countries come to Lebanon's aid, Israel's gonna be in a world of hurt and you're gonna drag reluctant Americans into it as well.
If you think Israel has the support of the United States now, just watch how fast it erodes if America enters a third conflict.
As to your belief that they will stop at nothing in their jihad to rid the earth of Jews, that may be true. But Israel's actions will simply to strengthen resolve and their hatred.
I believe that anyone can change and everyone deserves a chance. I believe you don't change people's hearts and minds by shoving their face in the dirt every chance you get.
as your friend, i don't want to respond. As a jew i must. and yet, i don't know how. you sit in your new suburban community with your cute little and nice job and sit in judgement on a country 9000 miles away.
what was your reaction after 9/11, when a bunch of ists destroyed a landmark? what would your reaction be if ists came over the Washinton State border and blew up the Space Needle?
i could point you to the blog of my friend and former boss who uprooted his family to live a dream, not 3 weeks before this war broke out. i could point you to the ZAKA website and show you how they pick up the pieces of every victim of to ensure a proper burial. I could point you to the Fox News Network, who, out of all the big news machines, sees that Israel is fighting the world's fight against because it has toin order to exist in safety, since no one else will. i could tell you of speeches that i heard in Arabic that spoke of decimation of Israel, while it was transalted into english as a desire for peace. i could tell you stories about just misses and almost blown up friends and religious leaders, and i could link you to a video from 4 months ago showing an atheistic muslim woman speak very clearly about the reasons behind the israeli-arab conflict.
i could, but i won't. and i won't because we start at different points. i am faithful to the religion of my parents, grandparents and forefathers back through the ages, through the Exodus from Egypt and the circumcision of Isaac at the age of 8 days. my religion has not changed in 5766 years. my desire for the land of israel to live in peace according to the Torah and the rabbis will never die. and for me, i thank Gd that the US supports Israel as deeply and thoroughly as it does. it keeps my friends and family a little bit safer, although, in the end, it truly is up to Gd.
again, as your friend, i have to tell you that to further continue this discussion will cause a problem. having said that, i will say that:
1) while the israelis had possession of Gaza, they made fruit grow in sand. the palestenians blame israel for not continuing to do that for them.
2) there is no way to separate Jew and Israeli. Americans come from everywhere, but every jew has the right to be an israeli citizen under the birthright law. it is not the israeli state. it is the jewish state. without one, there is no other.
3) i saw a 7 year old palestinian girl on CNN speak calmly of killing everyone in israel because they exist. for no other reason. this is a girl who in 4 or 5 or 10 years will get on a bus to go to work and blow up a bus with a bomb full of nails strapped to her chest.
and israeli child the same age will not say that. its not in our nature to think like that.
4) Syria yesterday, came out of "nowhere" and stated that they will retaliate if Israel attacks. israel has promised not to attacked, even though syria is supplying hezbollah. but since the rockets are not being shot from syria, they will not attack.
this isn't something i can explain to you. the arabs of today are not like the Moors of old, with religious tolerance and interest in promoting world acceptance. the arabs of today exist to wipe israel off the face of the earth, and kill all the jews they can. my family was run out of their home in 1964 because the arabs received their independence from france and jews were no longer tolerated. its genetic, its bible-dictated, and there is nothing in your 21st century mind that will allow this to stand as fact.
israelis work for that 23K a year. they go to school, go through the army, go to college, work to develop farming and technilogocal advances for man, be it arab or other. i disagree with you. let the palestinians work for their money. let them spend less time trying to blow up the country next door and more time making their land as it could be. for the last 58 years, and before that, israel has accomplished what it has in the face of terrorism and it has thrived. what is stopping the arabs from accomplishing the same?
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